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Frank Visser, graduated as a psychologist of culture and religion, founded IntegralWorld in 1997. He worked as production manager for various publishing houses and as service manager for various internet companies and lives in Amsterdam. Books: Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion (SUNY, 2003), and The Corona Conspiracy: Combatting Disinformation about the Coronavirus (Kindle, 2020).

Mean Memes in General

Integral World Podcast #8

Frank Visser / NotebookLM

This is an informal, AI-generated conversation by Google's NotebookLM, based on Bill Moyer's ""The Missing Links" of Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber" and Wilber's response.[1]

All right, welcome to your deep dive.

Awesome.

Today, uh, we're going to be tackling like some really big picture stuff, theories of everything.

Yeah.

Specifically through the lens of two integral world articles that, uh, that you shared with me, and these articles, they kind of use spiral dynamics, which is this model of how societies evolve. To explore these grand theories.

Okay.

Particularly focusing on something called the "mean orange meme". MOM for short. So, the Mean Orange meme represents kind of the potential downsides of global capitalism.

Okay. It's like the shadow side of economic progress.

We'll also be looking at its counterpart, the "healthy green meme", which embodies the positive aspects of social activism.

Yeah.

Pushing for change.

And Bill Moyer, the author of one of the articles, makes a really compelling point.

Yeah.

He says that often when people talk about spiral dynamics, they kind of skip over this mean orange meme, this thing. right?

Almost like it's, you know, an inconvenient truth.

Well, he argues that we can't just focus on the shiny positive aspects of development without acknowledging the potential harm that unchecked systems can inflict.

That's a good point. And he gets pretty specific.

He does

...about what this MOM system looks like in practice.

He breaks it down into five interconnected components. Yeah.

Starting with unsustainable practices like pollution and resource depletion, right?

Which often rely on cheap resources extracted from well, let's be honest, exploited parts of the world.

He then connects this to military intervention, arguing that a lot of it is about maintaining control over those resources.

And of course, all of this requires massive government spending on the military-industrial complex, which further perpetuates the cycle.

It's like this giant machine, leaving this trail of consequences in its wake.

Absolutely.

And the ultimate result, global inequality. It's almost like Moyer is saying, look, the wealth of a few is directly tied to the poverty of many.

Yes.

Which honestly is a pretty sobering thought.

It is. It makes you wonder what's our role in all of this. I mean, think about the shirt you're wearing, the phone in your pocket, the coffee you had this morning.

All of these things have a backstory, a chain of events that led to their creation and consumption.

Okay, Moyer is really prompting us to consider those hidden costs.

You know, it's funny before diving into these articles, I hadn't given much thought to how something as simple as my morning coffee could be connected to like a larger system of resource extraction and global inequality.

It's eye opening.

It really is. It's like suddenly the world feels a bit more interconnected and a bit more complicated.

Absolutely.

Now, the second article you shared features Ken Wilber, who's a prominent figure in integral theory.

Very much so.

And he kind of responds to Moyer's points.

He does.

And while he agrees about the harm caused by this mean orange meme, he uses a different term for it.

Okay.

"Modern flatland."

Flatland. That's an interesting term.

What exactly does he mean by that?

Well, Wilber's idea of flatland refers to a world that's become overly focused on scientific materialism. A world view that prioritizes the material and observable over the interior dimensions of human experience.

So things like consciousness, values, spirituality, they all get pushed to the sidelines in this flatland view.

Precisely. It's like we've flattened out the richness and complexity of human experience.

Okay.

Reducing everything to what can be measured and quantified.

I see.

And Wilber argues that this flat land, this mean orange meme is a direct result of what he calls the over-differentiation and dissociation of value spheres.

Wait, break that down for me. What does that even mean?

Think about it this way. We've divided human understanding into these separate categories. Art, morals, science, and we treat them as if they're completely unrelated.

Art over here, science over there. Morality is somewhere in between.

Right. Right.

But in reality, they're all interconnected.

It's like we've built walls between these different ways of knowing the world. And as a result, our understanding of reality has become fragmented.

I agree.

And maybe, just maybe, that fragmentation is at the root of some of the problems that Moyer's pointing to.

That's a good point

With the mean orange meme.

Yeah. It's a compelling connection.

It is.

And it really makes you wonder how does this flatland thinking show up in your own life? I mean, think about your work, your relationships, the way you approach problems. Are you operating from a place of interconnectedness and wholeness, right?

Or are you stuck in a flatland mentality.

That's a great question.

Yeah.

Really gets you thinking.

It does.

Hm.

Yeah.

So, we've got this mean orange meme, this flatland as Wilber calls it, creating a whole host of problems.

Yeah.

But it's not all doom and gloom, is it?

It's not.

Both Moyer and Wilber point to the healthy green meme, right? This rise of social movements.

Yeah.

As a potential counterforce.

Yes. And I think what's important here is the nuance.

Okay.

It's not as simple as saying orange is bad, green is good, right?

We need to understand that there are healthy and unhealthy expressions within each level of the Spiral.

Okay, I'm following you.

Okay, so even within the orange meme, which we've been talking about. In terms of its negative impacts. There are also positive aspects, right?

Absolutely. Think about innovation, entrepreneurship, the creation of jobs and opportunities, right?

These can all be outcomes of a healthy orange system. Okay. It's when the drive for profit becomes completely unhinged from ethical considerations. When people and the planet become mere resources to be exploited, that's when things go sideways.

And I imagine the same applies to the green meme, right? It's not all sunshine and rainbows just because it's associated with things like social justice and environmentalism.

You got it. Wilber actually talks about something called the mean green meme,

Okay?

Which is essentially the shadow side of the healthy green meme.

He argues that it can sometimes get caught up in its own righteous

Becoming intolerant and inflexible.

Almost like a kind of a perspectival madness, as he puts it.

A-perspectival madness. That sounds intense.

It does.

What exactly does that mean?

Basically, it's the trap of believing that your perspective is the only valid one. You have the monopoly on truth and righteousness. And ironically, this can lead to the very kind of division and judgment that the healthy green meme is trying to overcome.

Ah, so it's like a paradox.

It is.

The very things that the healthy green meme is fighting against, right, can also manifest within the movement itself.

Exactly.

That's fascinating. It seems like navigating this Spiral of development is a lot more complex than just picking a side, orange or green.

Precisely. And that brings us back to a question we touched on earlier.

Yeah.

Where do you see yourself within this Spiral?

Are you more drawn to individualistic pursuits or do you prioritize collective well-being?

Right.

Do you value tradition and authority?

Yeah.

Or are you more aligned with progressive ideals?

You know, I'm realizing that this isn't a simple question to answer.

It's not.

It's not like I can just check a box and say, "Okay, I'm green or I'm orange."

Right.

There are elements of both in my own worldview.

Of course.

And I imagine that's true for most people.

Absolutely. And that's part of what makes this whole exploration so interesting. It's not about labeling ourselves or others. It's about recognizing the complexity of human development and understanding how these different memes, these different ways of seeing the world, okay, interact and shape our individual and collective experiences.

And Moyer's own life experience really brings this to light.

It does.

I mean, he's been an activist for over 40 years.

Wow.

Working on issues ranging from civil rights to peace movements.

Uhhuh.

He's not just theorizing about this stuff from an ivory tower, right?

He's been in the trenches, so to speak, and he talks about working at the yellow level of consciousness, right? And that's another concept worth unpacking.

In Spiral dynamics, the yellow level represents a move towards integrative thinking, the capacity to hold multiple perspectives, okay, and see the interconnectedness of things.

I see.

So, yellow suggests someone who's deeply committed to social justice and environmental issues. But who also recognizes the need for more holistic and systemic solutions. So someone who's passionate about creating a better world.

Yes.

But who's also aware of the potential pitfalls of getting stuck in a rigid or dogmatic ideology. It's like finding that balance between passion and wisdom.

Yeah.

Between pushing for change and recognizing the complexity of the systems we're trying to change.

Exactly. And that's where Wilber's idea of second tier solutions comes into play.

Okay.

He argues that to truly address the challenges we face, right? We need to move beyond the limitations of both the mean orange meme and the mean green meme. Right? We need to transcend that either thinking and find solutions that honor the full spectrum of human needs and perspectives.

It's like we need to graduate to a new level of understanding.

Yes.

One that allows us to hold the tension between seemingly opposing forces to see the interconnectedness of things even when they appear separate and contradictory.

Absolutely.

But how do we actually get there? How do we foster this kind of second tier thinking in ourselves and in the world around us.

Yeah, that's the big question.

So, we've explored this uh fascinating interplay. Between the mean orange meme and the healthy green meme. And it seems like the key to moving forward is to somehow transcend both.

Yeah.

To reach what Wilber calls a second tier perspective.

Exactly.

But how do we actually do that?

Well, I think the first step is awareness.

Okay.

We need to be able to recognize these memes when they show up in our lives, in our communities, in our institutions.

So, it's about paying attention, noticing the patterns.

Exactly.

Like when I see a news story about a company prioritizing profits over the well-being of its workers or the environment. That's the mean orange meme in action. Right.

Exactly.

Or when I see a social movement getting bogged down in infighting and dogma. That's potentially the shadow side of the healthy green meme.

Exactly. It's about being able to see those dynamics playing out, not just in the world at large, but also in our own lives, right?

Because let's be honest, we all have elements of both orange and green within us. It's not about judging ourselves or others, okay?

It's about understanding these patterns so we can start to make more conscious choices.

You know, I'm thinking back to that point Moyer made.

Yeah.

About the five components of the mean orange meme, right?

He talked about unsustainable practices, resource extraction, military intervention, government spending.

Yes.

And global inequality, right? And I think that's a really important takeaway.

Okay.

It's not enough to just focus on one piece of the puzzle, right?

We need to see the system as a whole.

Uhhuh.

Understand how the different parts interact and reinforce each other.

And that's where things can get really tricky because changing a system as complex and entrenched as this one is no easy feat.

No kidding. It can feel pretty overwhelming.

See, I'm to be honest.

Yeah.

But I guess that's where the healthy green meme comes in, right?

I think so.

Those movements pushing for social and environmental justice.

They're like the antibodies trying to fight off the infection.

I like that analogy. Yeah.

And I think what's important to remember is that those movements are made up of individuals. People like you and me who are choosing to step up and say we can do better. We can create systems that are more just, more sustainable, more aligned with our values.

So it's about finding that balance, isn't it?

I think it is, between recognizing the scale and complexity of the problem.

Yeah.

And also recognizing our own power, to contribute to solutions.

Absolutely.

Like that quote, think globally, act locally.

I like that.

Or maybe in this case, it's think systemically, act personally.

Well said. And I think that's a great way to frame the question we leave our listeners with today.

Okay.

Considering everything we've explored in this deep dive, considering the power dynamics and societal structures at play, right? What action, even a small one, can you take today to nudge the system, however slightly, towards a healthier and more sustainable future?

It's a question worth pondering.

It is.

And one that we hope will continue to spark your curiosity and inspire action.

Absolutely.

Long after this deep dive is over. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for joining us on this journey.

It's been a pleasure.

REFERENCES

[1] Bill Moyer, ""The Missing Links" of Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber: The Mean Orange Meme (MOM) and the Healthy Green Meme (HGM)", and Ken Wilber, "On the mean memes in general: Red to blue to orange to green to yellow....", www.integralworld.net, February 2002.