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Frank Visser, graduated as a psychologist of culture and religion, founded IntegralWorld in 1997. He worked as production manager for various publishing houses and as service manager for various internet companies and lives in Amsterdam. Books: Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion (SUNY, 2003), and The Corona Conspiracy: Combatting Disinformation about the Coronavirus (Kindle, 2020).

Eros or Cosmic Entropy?

Integral World Podcast #6

Frank Visser / NotebookLM

This is an informal, AI-generated conversation by Google's NotebookLM, based on the essay "The Final Cause of Cosmic Development" written by Michael Zimmermann in 2010.[1]

All right, strap in everybody because we're going deep on thermodynamics today.

Oo, thermodynamics.

Yeah, we're tackling a question that's been bugging philosophers and scientists forever.

Uh-oh. Which one?

Is the universe fundamentally creative? Or is it like ultimately destructive at its core?

Oh wow.

And you know, you sent us this really cool article by Michael Zimmerman.

Yeah.

About Stanley Salthe.

I've heard of him.

He's a philosopher of science and he thinks the second law of thermodynamics is kind of the answer to this whole cosmic puzzle.

Interesting.

So that's what we're diving into today.

It really changes how we usually think about the second law.

It does, doesn't it?

Like instead of it just being this principle of physics, he's saying it's the ultimate driving force behind well everything. He calls it the uh the final cause of the universe.

Okay. So let's break that down a little because most people know the second law is this entropy thing, right?

You know, systems tend to move towards disorder...

...like my apartment.

Exactly.

But what does it even mean for something as big as the entire universe to have a final cause?

What is that?

So, think of a final cause as like an attractor. It's something that pulls things towards a particular result.

Okay.

Like um you know like a magnet pulls in metal shavings.

Yeah. Yeah.

Salthe says the second law is like that magnet but for the entire universe. It's constantly pulling everything towards more and more entropy, more disorder.

So then how does life fit into all of this?

That's the question.

Because it seems like life is about creating order.

Yeah.

Complexity. You know, we've got these intricate ecosystems, complex organisms like us, right? How does that work if everything is going towards disorder?

Well, that's where it gets really interesting.

Okay.

Life is like a master at using energy gradients.

Like it takes these very organized types of energy like sunlight or complicated molecules and it breaks them down into simpler, less organized forms. And so, you know, in the process, life creates these little pockets of order, like a single organism.

But it's actually making the overall entropy of the universe go up.

So, it's like life is playing this game.

Yeah.

Where it's creating order on a small scale, but it's actually fueling this bigger trend towards disorder.

Yeah. That's it.

Wow.

Salthe calls those pockets of order dissipative structures.

Dissipative structures.

Yeah. You can think about uh a hurricane.

It's highly organized, right? But it exists because it's getting rid of energy and increasing entropy in the atmosphere.

Oh, okay.

Living things are kind of like that, too.

Oh, so we're just like hurricanes

Kind of. Yeah. We eat complex food, we break it down, and we release heat and waste.

Yeah.

Which all increases entropy.

So, we're just really efficient like entropy machines.

Well, that's one way to put it.

Is Salthe okay with that?

Oh, yeah. He doesn't shy away from it at all.

Wow.

He even says that humans systems, especially the ones that you know emphasize constant growth and consumption are like the ultimate example of the second law.

So like capitalism...

It's one way to look at it

...with its constant production, consumption, and waste, right? Is he saying that's just the second law playing out on a societal level?

Well, think about it. We take resources, usually in a pretty messy way, turn them into products, we use those products, and then toss them out.

Yep.

That makes a lot of waste and heat, which both mean more entropy and the faster we do all that, the more entropy we make.

Exactly.

So, like our desire for new phones, bigger houses, all that stuff. Is it actually us just like serving the second law's need for disorder?

Makes you think, doesn't it?

It really does.

There's this quote from Salthe that I think sums it up.

Oh, yeah.

He says, and I quote, "Our efforts to sustain ourselves uh constitute our worship of the thermodynamic law which accepts our sacrifice as it consumes us."

Wow.

Pretty intense.

Yeah. It really makes you wonder about the things that are driving our behavior both on a personal level and as a society, right?

So, if we're all just pawns in this cosmic entropy game, are we doomed?

Doomed.

Yeah. Like, are we going to run out of resources and just descend into chaos? We escape this cycle.

That's where Salthe's ideas get really interesting because he introduces this concept that might surprise you.

What's that?

The primordial Mind.

Okay, now I'm intrigued.

It is a pretty big leap.

Yeah, we're going from thermodynamics to like some kind of cosmic consciousness.

Uh not exactly consciousness as we usually think about it.

Salthe describes the primordial Mind as this pure potential that was around before the Big Bang.

Oh wow.

It's this realm where all possibilities existed including the laws of physics just waiting to happen.

So you're saying the second law which seems so powerful came from something else. Something that maybe it can't in touch.

That's what Salthe is saying. It's like the second law is a really strong tool, but it's still just a tool. It doesn't define the entire game. And this opens up the idea that there could be other forces out there, other things influencing the universe besides just entropy.

So, on one hand, we've got entropy. But then we've also got this hint of something deeper. Something that maybe goes beyond the second law.

Right.

This is fascinating.

It is.

But I think, before we go too far down that road, we need to unpack this whole primordial Mind thing a bit more...

Definitely

...like what is it?

Yeah.

And how does it connect to us here in this, you know, messy world of entropy?

Those are the big questions.

They are.

And that's exactly what we'll be looking at next time.

Awesome.

We'll dig into Salthe's primordial Mind.

Yeah.

And we're also going to bring in another thinker, Ken Wilber.

Oh, cool.

He has a slightly different perspective on this whole dance between creation and destruction.

Sounds awesome.

So stay tuned.

I will.

It gets even more interesting.

I can't wait.

Welcome back. Last time we were getting into some pretty mind-bending stuff. Stanley Salthe's primordial Mind.

Yeah. It's a big jump from the second law of thermodynamics.

It is.

But that's what I love about these deep dives.

Me too.

So we're talking about this primordial Mind as this source of everything. Like all possibilities come from it. Even the laws of physics came out of it.

Yeah.

But if the second law governs the physical world, does it also apply to the primordial Mind?

Right. Like are they in conflict?

Yeah, it seems like they would be.

Well, Salthe actually talks about that.

Oh, so the second law didn't exist before the Big Bang.

It didn't.

It came about after the universe, you know, became a thing.

Oh, I see.

So, the primordial Mind in his view, it's outside of time and space, like the way we understand them anyway.

So, it operates under a different set of rules.

Exactly.

That we can barely even imagine

Pretty much. And this is where it gets really interesting because you mentioned Ken Wilber earlier.

Oh, right.

He talks about this concept of Spirit. As the driving force behind evolution.

He does.

And I've always found that really compelling.

Yeah.

But how does Salthe's primordial Mind relate to Wilber's Spirit?

Right.

They seem similar but also different somehow.

It is interesting how they connect.

Yeah, there are some definite parallels.

Okay.

Both are pointing to something beyond on the physical world, right? A source of creativity and potential that isn't bound by the second law, but they get there in different ways.

They do. Yeah.

So, all this starts with science, thermodynamics. Wilber comes more from Eastern philosophy.

That's a good way to put it.

So, it's like they're describing the same elephant.

Okay.

But one's feeling the trunk and the other's feeling the leg.

I like that analogy. It gets to the heart of their approaches.

But here's the thing.

It's that despite that, they both reach a pretty similar conclusion.

They do. Both acknowledge this tension between creation and destruction like the universe wants to be and not be at the same time.

It's this fundamental duality, we see it everywhere mythology, religion, our own lives... it's like we can't escape it.

It's a core part of existence and Salthe and Wilber both have some thoughts on how to handle this tension. They both say contemplative practices are important

Right, meditation mindfulness being in nature.

So we can find peace within ourselves.

Yeah.

Even if we're all stuck in this entropy machine.

That seems to be the message.

Like it's not about ignoring entropy or the bad stuff.

No,

It's about finding balance, between the creative and destructive forces without being consumed by either.

Exactly.

This is starting to make sense.

Good.

But I still have questions.

Of course.

If the primordial Mind or spirit, if it's beyond the second law, does that mean entropy doesn't affect it and if so, how does that impact the universe?

Those are great questions.

They are and ones that we're going to keep exploring.

Awesome.

But before we do, we should think about what this all means for us.

Okay.

Here and now.

You know, we're caught in this cosmic dance between entropy and this pull towards greater consciousness.

Yeah.

So, what are we in all of this?

Yeah. Are we just along for the ride?

Are we passive participants or can we actually do something? Can we influence things.

These are huge questions.

They really are.

And that's what we'll be diving into in the final part. We'll look at the ethical side of Salthe and Wilber's ideas. And figure out what it means to live a good life.

Yeah.

In a universe ruled by entropy and consciousness. So stick around.

Okay. Welcome back. We've been on this crazy journey.

I know, right?

From the second law of thermodynamics to the primordial Mind.

It's a lot.

It is.

But I think the biggest question we have now is...

Yeah what does it all mean?

What does all this mean for us, for as humans, trying to figure out where we fit in all of this, in this wild universe?

Exactly.

Yeah. It's a lot to process.

It is.

We have this force pushing towards disorder but then we also see this drive towards complexity consciousness. It's like the universe is fighting with itself.

It's a really interesting tension.

And to be honest, some of what we've been talking about, especially that quote from Salthe about like our efforts to survive just being worship of the thermodynamic law.

It's kind of a bleak picture.

It is.

Yeah.

Like are we just cogs in this machine.

Destined to burn out?

Is there any hope in this view of the universe?

I think there is.

Okay.

But we need to shift our perspective a bit.

How do we do that?

Remember Salthe says the second law isn't everything.

Okay.

It's strong, but it comes from something deeper.

Right. The primordial Mind.

Exactly.

And Wilber, he talks about Spirit.

This force pushing us towards something more, towards wholeness.

So, it's not just about entropy.

No, there are other things at play.

There are...

Maybe things that can even fight back against this whole disorder thing.

That's the exciting part.

It is exciting.

We don't have to deny the second law.

Yeah.

But we can recognize that there are these other forces too.

Okay. But how do we do that?

How do we like tap into these other forces?

Yeah. If we want to work with them.

Both Salthe and Wilber talk about contemplative practices.

Oh, okay. Like meditation, mindfulness, being out in nature, things like that.

So, we can kind of develop this awareness, a deeper understanding of ourselves.

Exactly.

And by doing that, we can see how we're part of these bigger forces.

Yeah.

And maybe even find ways to separate ourselves from the ones that aren't helping us.

It's like we're not just victims of circumstance.

We have a choice.

We do.

We can shape our own experiences and contribute to the evolution of consciousness in a positive way. This makes me think about all the amazing things humans have done, you know, despite all the challenges.

We've done some pretty incredible things, incredible civilizations, art, music, technology, all these things that seem to like push back against entropy.

I think you're right.

They do, don't they?

They do.

And that's where I see the hope.

In our creativity, connection, love.

These forces that go against entropy, they push us towards meaning, order.

It's like when we tap into those qualities, we're aligning ourselves with a different set of rules.

It's like we're choosing to play a different game.

Not just breaking things down, but building something new and good.

That's a beautiful way to put it.

I like that.

It speaks to how powerful we are as individuals and as a species.

We can choose our path, shape our future.

This has been an amazing deep dive.

It has.

We've explored some really big ideas.

We have.

And I think we came out of it with some hope.

Yeah, me too.

So, thank you to everyone for listening.

Yeah. Thanks for joining us.

We'll be back soon. with another episode and more fascinating ideas. Until then, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep creating.

REFERENCES

[1] Michael Zimmerman, "The Final Cause of Cosmic Development, Nondual Spirit, or the Second Law of Thermodynamics?", www.integralworld.net, 2016.