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Frank Visser, graduated as a psychologist of culture and religion, founded IntegralWorld in 1997. He worked as production manager for various publishing houses and as service manager for various internet companies and lives in Amsterdam. Books: Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion (SUNY, 2003), and The Corona Conspiracy: Combatting Disinformation about the Coronavirus (Kindle, 2020).

Ken Wilber on Meditation

Integral World Podcast #4

Frank Visser / NotebookLM

This is an informal, AI-generated conversation by Google's NotebookLM, based on the essay "Ken Wilber on Meditation, A Baffling Babbling of Unending Nonsense" written by Jim Andrews in 2006.[1]

All right, welcome in everyone to uh another deep dive.

Yes, this time we're diving into Ken Wilber.

Ah Ken Wilber

And specifically we're going to be looking at uh his ideas about meditation.

Okay, so sounds good.

You know, Ken Wilber, if you're into this kind of stuff, you probably already know he's a big name in transpersonal psychology, integral theory, all that jazz, right?

Um but we're going to be looking at a particular essay, called "Ken Wilber on meditation. A baffling babbling of unending nonsense."

Oh, wow.

So, as you can tell from the title,

we're not just going to be like straightforward. "Oh, Ken Wilber is great."

Yeah.

Right. We're taking a critical look here.

Okay.

And this essay is written by Jim Andrews.

All right.

And what's interesting about this is that Jim Andrews, he was a fan of Ken Wilber.

Oh, okay.

But then became disillusioned.

Interesting.

So, we're going to explore why that is, right?

And he kind of breaks it down into nine key concerns about Wilber's ideas about meditation.

All right. So, nine points that he kind of takes issue with.

Yeah. And some of these are pretty bold.

Okay.

So, should be interesting.

Yeah. I'm intrigued.

So, the first concern that Andrew brings up is that Wilber says that meditation speeds up development.

Okay.

Like your development through the stages of consciousness, right? That it can accelerate that.

Okay.

Which I think sounds pretty enticing.

Yeah, definitely.

Um but Andrew points out that Wilber doesn't really offer a lot of like concrete evidence to support these claims.

Oh, interesting. So, it's more like anecdotal.

It seems to be. Yeah. Like he's saying, you know, based on my experience and my interpretation of these things, this is what's happening.

Okay. Interesting.

That brings us to concern number two. Which is that 20 to 25 years of dedicated meditation can lead to enlightenment.

Okay.

So, when I first heard that, I was like, "Yeah, that's that's yeah, give me 25 years." That sounds great.

Yeah. Yeah. But there's a twist.

Okay.

Wilber himself admits that he hasn't achieved this even after decades of practice.

Oh, interesting.

And he also says that he hasn't even met anyone who has.

Okay.

So, it's like...

Yeah, so then what's the basis of this claim?

Right. And that's a good question.

Yeah.

It's like, does that mean that his claim is invalid, right?

Or is he just saying that, well, everyone's journey is unique?

Yeah.

And you can't really put like a time line on it, right?

Yeah. It's not one size fits-all.

Yeah. So, it's kind of I don't know. It's kind of tricky.

Yeah.

But Andrews doesn't say that Wilber's wrong.

Okay.

He just kind of highlights that there's just like a lack of concrete proof, right?

And that he's relying on, you know, kind of anecdotal evidence.

Yeah.

And just leaves it up to you to decide.

Sure.

But what I find fascinating is why Wilber might make such a bold claim, without like without real solid evidence.

Yeah. Is it just is it a misinterpretation of existing data, or is it wishful thinking?

Mhm.

Or is it something else entirely?

Yeah.

And that kind of leads us to point number three that Andrews makes.

Okay.

Which is that Wilber states that only meditation has been scientifically proven, to accelerate development.

Okay.

But then in the same interview that he says that he recommends yoga, shamanic practices, all sorts of other things.

Oh wow. And he claims that they speed up spiritual growth.

Okay.

So it's like on the one hand only meditation.

Yeah.

But then also all these other things too.

So like which one is it?

Right. And he doesn't really explain the discrepancy.

Huh. Okay. So that's interesting.

We're going to look at the research that Wilber does cite.

Okay.

And he often mentions the work of Skip Alexander and his colleagues who study the effects of transcendental meditation or TM.

Yeah, I've heard of that.

But Wilber acknowledges that there are valid criticisms, okay, of this research.

Oh, interesting.

He even calls them inadequacies.

Wow.

So, we're talking potential bias, questionable methodology, and even ignoring the negative effects some people experience from meditation, right?

So, why would he endorse research that he knows has flaws?

Yeah.

And Andrews dives into this and suggests that maybe Wilber was downplaying Alexander's affiliation with Maharishi International University.

Okay.

Was it like you know heavily associated with TM...

Yeah it makes you wonder.

Is he being totally transparent here?

Is there a balanced view of the research, right, being presented?

Interesting.

So that's something to consider.

Yeah definitely.

Now the next concern that Andrew brings up is about Wilber's claim.

Yeah.

That meditation can boost you two whole levels on developmental scales in just three to four years.

Two levels.

Two levels.

That's a big jump in just a few years.

Huge leap.

Yeah.

But the research that Wilber cites, actually shows a gain of just one level in one year. And that finding came from a study on prisoners.

Mhm.

Which I mean, how much can we really...

How much can you extrapolate from that?

Yeah. Like generalize that to the average person with general population, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And the methodology of the study itself has been criticized.

Oh.

So it seems like Wilber took this limited data.

Yeah.

And stretched it way beyond, way beyond what it showed, what it actually showed.

Interesting.

All right. So, another bold claim that doesn't quite hold up.

Okay.

Which leads us to another one of Wilber's like favorite statistics.

Okay.

That meditation increases the percentage of people reaching the highest levels of ego development.

Okay.

From a measly 2% to a whopping 38%.

Wow. That's huge, right?

Sounds impressive. Yeah. Except this research also suffered is from those same valid criticisms that we talked about earlier.

Sure. Okay.

So, the study went on for 11 years. Not a few as Wilber often suggests, right? Relied on a single raider[?].

Mhm.

Which can lead to bias.

Of course, the sample size was small, right? The controls were weak.

Okay.

So, even with meditation, over two thirds of the participants still didn't reach those highest levels after more than a decade.

Wow. Okay.

Yeah.

Makes you wonder if these statistics are really painting a realistic picture.

Yeah. Are they really telling the whole story?

Exactly.

Okay. On to concern number seven.

Okay.

Wilber's proposition, that meditation when combined with what he calls community verification, can establish spiritual truths.

Interesting.

So, community verification is basically like talking with other meditators.

Yeah. Like you're discussing your experiences and that somehow like helps to solidify or validate those experiences.

So, that makes sense. But also it kind of reminds me of how religious groups operate, right?

Like you have shared beliefs and communal reinforcement, right?

But does that necessarily make those beliefs true?

Yeah, that's the question, right?

Just because you believe it and your friends believe it, does that make it true?

And so Andrew challenges this notion, right, by asking, where are the scientific controls? Where are the objective measures? How do you account for cultural bias?

Yeah. All good questions.

And he even suggest the possibility of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you go into meditation expecting certain experiences and you're surrounded by people confirming those experiences, are you discovering like universal truths?

Yeah.

Or are you just validating your pre-existing beliefs?

That's a good point. Yeah,

It's a good question.

Yeah.

Now, Andrew's eighth concern tackles the Maharishi effect.

Okay.

And this is the idea that mass meditation can actually reduce crime and makes this to be more peaceful.

Okay.

And Wilber claims that even skeptics admit that this effect is real.

Okay.

But Andrew's research revealed the opposite.

Oh wow.

Yeah. Multiple skeptical sources, including respected scientists, okay, have actually debunked this Maharishi effect.

Mhm.

So, is Wilber misrepresenting the facts here?

Right.

Or is he holding on to an idea that fits his worldview even if the evidence doesn't really support it?

Yeah, it's tough.

Yeah, tough questions.

It is. All right. Now, let's move on to Andrews's ninth and arguably most crucial concern.

Okay.

Especially for anyone considering meditation.

All right.

Well, Wilber acknowledges that meditation can have negative effects.

Okay.

He only mentions it briefly.

Interesting.

And that's concerning.

Because there's actually a lot of research documenting potential downsides to meditation.

Really?

Yeah. And Wilber has even cited this research himself in other writings.

Oh, okay.

But he downplays the risks when he's advocating for meditation. So, what kind of risks are we talking about?

Okay, lay it on me.

We're talking about anxiety, depression.

Okay.

Psychotic episodes.

Wow.

Even suicide attempts linked to meditation.

So, it's a bit more serious than I thought.

Right.

It raises the question, is it ethically responsible, right, to gloss over these potential harms?

Yeah. It's like, is the focus on the benefits overriding the well-being of individuals?

Yeah. You need to give people the full picture.

Yeah. so they can make their own choices, right?

And so it's here that Andrews questions Wilber's integrity, and commitment to truth and transparency, like, shouldn't people have all of the information before they start a practice that could have such profound consequences?

For sure.

And so I think this is a great place to pause, and reflect on what we've covered so far.

That was a lot.

Yeah. We've explored Andrew's nine key concerns, which kind of paint a rather critical picture of Wilber's claims about meditation.

Right. Right.

We're not done yet.

Okay.

We've got more to cover.

Stay tuned.

I'm right.

We'll be right back.

Awesome. So, we've unpacked like a lot about Andrew's critique of Wilber's views on meditation.

Yeah.

But if we like zoom out a bit.

Yeah.

What does it all mean?

Yeah. It is a lot to process. I mean,

Andrews raises some pretty serious questions, right, about Wilber's credibility, not just as like a scholar, but also as a spiritual teacher, right? And remember, Andrews isn't saying that meditation is bad.

His main point is that Wilber's claims about its benefits, especially the extent of those benefits aren't really backed up. And that ignoring the potential risks is a pretty big deal.

Huge deal.

Yeah.

Especially when you think about how many people follow Wilber's teachings, right?

It's like trusting a doctor.

Yeah.

Who's making big promises about a new treatment but glossing over the potential side effects.

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. And it's worth remembering that Andrew's essay was written back in 2006.

Wow.

Almost 20 years ago.

Yeah.

So, has Wilber responded at all? Did he address any of these concerns?

Like, has he clarified anything since then?

Right.

Yeah. I don't know.

That's the thing. We don't know for sure.

Right. This deep dive is based on the information that you provided.

Right. Right.

Which is just this essay.

But he does pose that question.

Yeah.

At the end as like a like a jumping off point.

Yeah. Jumping off point for further exploration.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And I think that's what's so fascinating about these deep dives is that it's not about just like giving you all the answers, right?

It's more like we're handing you a map and a compass and you get to choose where to explore, right?

You get to blaze your own trail.

Exactly.

Based on this information, but in this case, the map leads us to some pretty big questions.

Yeah.

About critical thinking and challenging assumptions.

Yeah. Even when it comes to figures that we might admire,

Like it's easy to just accept what someone says, right?

... especially if we respect them, right?

But we should always be questioning and thinking for ourselves, for sure. And it's so easy to put these spiritual teachers or thought leaders on a pedestal, right?

But it's important to remember that they're human, too.

They are.

They have their own biases, their own interpretations, and their own agenda sometimes.

Yeah. Potentially.

Yeah.

And so, it's on us to be discerning, to question question and to evaluate the information for ourselves.

Exactly.

And that actually reminds me of Wilber's own emphasis on validity claims.

Okay.

Which are these tests.

Oh yeah.

That he outlines in his book, A Brief History of Everything for determining if something's true.

Yeah. True, good, and beautiful. And he really encourages us to be critical, to challenge our own beliefs.

Okay.

So it makes you wonder, does Wilber's own presentation of meditation pass those tests?

That's the question.

Yeah. And Andrews clearly doesn't think so.

Right.

And I think he makes a compelling case.

Mhm.

But ultimately, it's up to each individual to decide.

Yeah. For sure.

And that's the beauty of it.

Yeah.

You know, these deep dives are about empowering you to think for yourself.

Exactly.

Not to tell you what to think.

I like that.

Yeah.

I like that a lot.

But speaking of thinking for ourselves, I keep coming back to Andrew's point about community verification, right?

And how talking about our experiences with others can like shape our understanding of truth.

Right. Right.

Like it is helpful to connect with others and learn from their experiences, for sure.

But as Andrew's pointed out, it can also lead to group think and confirmation bias.

It's like an echo chamber where everyone's just reinforcing the same ideas whether they're accurate or not.

Exactly. So, so how do we find that balance, between like learning from others and maintaining our own critical thinking?

Yeah. Our own critical thinking skills.

Yeah. That's the challenge.

It's a challenge especially today, right?

When we're bombarded with information from all sides.

Exactly.

And it's particularly relevant when it comes to something like meditation, right?

Which is often presented as like a cure all.

Yeah. This universally beneficial practice, right? But it's not, right?

And it's certainly not risk-free, which brings us back to that last point.

Yeah.

Andrew's raised the potential negative effects, right, of meditation.

It's almost Like Wilber selectively shares information.

Yeah. He focuses on the positives but downplays or even omits the downside.

Yeah. The downside, which is not cool.

It does make you question his motives.

It does.

Like is it truly about presenting a balanced and objective view?

Yeah.

Or is there an agenda at play?

It's hard to say for sure.

It is.

But it's a good reminder.

Yeah.

To be aware of potential bias,

right?

Not just in Wilber's work, but in anything we read or hear.

Yeah. Be a critical consumer of information. It's like, who's the author? What's their background? What might they be leaving out?

Yeah. What are their intentions?

Exactly.

I'm starting to realize that critical thinking isn't just about analyzing facts.

It's about more than that. It's about looking at the source of those facts and why they're being presented.

Exactly. The intentions behind them.

Yeah. Be a detective.

Yes.

Look for clues.

Consider different angles and be willing to challenge, right, our own assumptions.

Yeah. Be open to being wrong.

Yeah.

And sometimes that means, sometimes that means digging deep.

Doing your own research.

Yeah. Doing your own research.

Come to your own conclusions.

Exactly.

You got it.

And you know this whole deep dive reminds me of something I read.

Oh yeah.

About the history of science.

Okay.

And how so many groundbreaking discoveries were made by people who dared to question the status quo, right?

To challenge the accepted wisdom.

Yeah. The accepted wisdom of their time.

Of their time.

Like Galileo.

Yeah, exactly. It's like that quote from Einstein.

Oh, yeah.

Uh blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.

Ooh, I like that one.

Right.

Yeah, it's a good one.

And we need that spirit of inquiry.

Yeah.

That willingness to push the boundaries to push the boundaries of our understanding.

And sometimes that means disagreeing. Even with people we respect.

Exactly. Even people that we admire.

It's okay to disagree.

You're not always going to agree with everyone.

This has definitely been a thoughtprovoking conversation.

I'm already feeling more aware of the need to be critical and discerning. Not just with information about meditation, but just in all areas of life.

Yeah. All areas of life. Just approach everything with a critical eye.

Be a detective.

Be a detective.

Look for the clues.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah.

I like it.

It's like we've been given a new lens.

A new lens through which to view the world.

Oh.

A lens that helps us to see things more clearly.

Yeah.

With greater depth and nuance.

I love that.

Right.

Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. It's so easy to like get caught up in a new idea.

Right.

Especially when it's presented by someone.

Someone so influential.

Yeah. As influential as Ken Wilber.

Yeah. For sure.

You know, and we can get drawn in by the promise of enlightenment, right?

Or rapid spiritual growth.

But it's important to remember that there's no quick fix.

Yeah. There's no quick fix. There's no guaranteed path. Yeah. No magic bullet.

No magic bullet.

It's like anything else in life that's worthwhile like relationships, careers, personal growth.

Yeah.

Takes time, effort, right?

And a willingness to learn and adapt.

Yeah. And just as there are different learning styles, there are diverse paths, a spiritual exploration and understanding.

So, how do we navigate this this complex landscape? of information and practices, right?

Andrew's critique really highlights the importance of doing our own research, doesn't it?

It does.

Like we can't just rely on what others tell us, right?

Even if they come across as experts.

Yeah. Even if they seem credible.

Yeah.

You got to do your own due diligence.

We need to engage directly with the source material, weigh the evidence, consider different perspectives.

Absolutely.

And ultimately form our own conclusions.

That's the key.

But let's be honest. It can feel overwhelming.

It can for sure.

There's so much information out there.

It's like drinking from a fire hose sometimes.

Yeah. And it's not always easy to know where to start, right?

Or who to trust.

Yeah. It's tough.

So, but here's the thing. The more we develop those critical thinking skills, the more equipped we are to navigate the world.

Yeah. It's like learning a new language.

Exactly.

At first, it's challenging, but as you practice

Yeah. you become more fluent, right? More confident in your ability to understand and communicate.

I love that analogy.

So, it's not just about gathering information.

Yeah. It's more than that.

It's about developing a framework for understanding.

Yeah. For understanding and integrating that information into our lives.

Exactly.

That's what makes these deep dives so valuable.

It is.

It's not just about presenting information.

It's about empowering you, right, to think critically.

Yeah. To think critically and to consciously engage with the world around you. I like that.

So, as we wrap up this deep dive into Wilber's views on meditation, what's the one key takeaway?

Oh, good question.

That you want our listeners to walk away with?

I would say the most important thing is to remember that any spiritual practice, yeah, including meditation, should be approached with a sense of informed curiosity.

Okay.

Discernment.

Yeah.

And a willingness to listen to your own inner wisdom.

Informed curiosity, discernment, and trusting your inner compass.

It's your gut.

Yeah. And I think that's such a powerful reminder.

It is.

That we each have the capacity to navigate our own path, right? You don't need to follow someone else's map.

Yeah. To learn and grow in ways that are authentic. Yeah.

And meaningful to us.

Absolutely.

So to our listener out there,

Yes.

Keep exploring.

Keep questioning.

Keep diving deep.

Until next time.

REFERENCES

[1] Jim Andrews, Ken Wilber on Meditation, A Baffling Babbling of Unending Nonsense", www.integralworld.net, 2006.