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Frank Visser, graduated as a psychologist of culture and religion, founded IntegralWorld in 1997. He worked as production manager for various publishing houses and as service manager for various internet companies and lives in Amsterdam. Books: Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion (SUNY, 2003), and The Corona Conspiracy: Combatting Disinformation about the Coronavirus (Kindle, 2020).

Finding Radical Wholeness Review

Integral World Podcast #2

Frank Visser / NotebookLM

This is an informal, AI-generated conversation by Google's NotebookLM, based on a review of Ken Wilber's latest book Finding Radical Wholeness, which was published on Integral World.[1]

Welcome to our deep dive into Ken Wilber's Finding Radical Wholeness. You're specifically interested in how Wilber connects spirituality with psychology and personal growth and even global issues. So, we'll be focusing on those points today. Get ready for a mind expanding journey as we unpack his unique blend of eastern and western thought which promises a path to experiencing as he calls it Big Wholeness.

Wilber's ideas go beyond just personal well-being. He suggests a way of being that could transform how we understand understand everything from our inner lives to how we interact with the world.

All right, so let's break down this Big Wholeness. Wilber lays out five pathways to get there. Waking up, growing up, cleaning up, showing up, and opening up. He makes it sound like a pretty comprehensive self-improvement plan. But you're curious about spirituality. So, let's start with waking up. What exactly does Wilber mean by that?

Waking up is the eastern path, the heart of Wilber's approach. It's about experiencing what he calls the Ground of Being, the ultimate reality through practices like meditation.

So, like mindfulness and meditation practices that help us tap into a deeper awareness. Is that what leads to things like unity consciousness and nondual awareness that I've heard about?

Exactly. Wilber believes these practices can lead to those states where the usual boundaries between yourself and everything else seem to dissolve. You experience a profound interconnectedness. Now, you might be wondering how this fits with our everyday understanding of reality.

It does sound pretty mystical. How does Wilber reconcile that with our everyday lives?

He makes a distinction between what he calls Ultimate Truth which is accessed through waking up and relative truth which is our everyday knowledge. Think of it this way. Imagine you're looking at a beautiful tapestry. Relative truth is like focusing on individual threads, the details. But ultimate truth is seeing the whole picture, the intricate design, the unity of all those threads.

So it's like there are different levels of reality and waking up allows us to see that ultimate level.

That's a great way to put it. And to understand this more deeply, Wilber outlines five stages of meditative states that correspond to these levels. He starts with a gross state, our ordinary waking consciousness, then moves through more refined levels of awareness called subtle and causal states. The final two are the fourth state, which is pure witnessing, and beyond the fourth, where you experience non-duality.

That's fascinating. So, if I'm interested in exploring meditation, Wilber's framework suggests a kind of progression I might experience from calming my mind to potentially experiencing a profound sense of oneness. precisely and it highlights the depth and potential of these practices. Now while waking up is rooted in eastern traditions, Wilber also integrates western psychology with his concept of growing up. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, I am interested in personal growth. So is growing up about how our understanding of the world changes as we mature?

Exactly. Wilber brings in western developmental psychology and suggests that we go through a series of stages starting from infancy all the way to what he calls the integral stage. He believes that each stage shapes how we see the world, make moral decisions, and even understand things like religion.

So he's saying that our cognitive abilities, our moral reasoning, and our worldview, they all evolve over time, and this influences how we interpret the world around us.

Yes. And he outlines specific stages like magic, mythic, rational, and pluralistic leading up to integral. Each stage has its own characteristics. For example, in the mythic stage, people tend to see the world through the lens of stories and myths. In the rational stage, logic and reason take center stage.

It's interesting to think about how these stages might play out in our lives and relationships. Could understanding these stages help us navigate the conflicts and disagreements we see in society?

That's one of Wilber's key points. He believes that many conflicts arise because people are operating from different developmental stages. He even sees the culture wars as clashes between individuals holding preodern, modern, and post-modern worldviews.

So, if we recognize where someone is coming from developmentally, It might help us bridge those divides and communicate more effectively.

That's the idea. For instance, Wilber uses Christianity as an example to show how our understanding of religion changes across stages. Someone at a magic stage might view Jesus as a miracle worker, while someone at a rational stage might see him as a moral teacher. As we grow up developmentally, our interpretations of faith and spirituality can become more nuanced and inclusive.

That's a thought-provoking point. Our religious beliefs aren't static. They're part of a larger developmental journey. It makes you wonder how these stages might influence our understanding of spirituality as a whole. But I know Wilber also brings in the concept of evolution. That seems to be where his ideas get a little more controversial. Right?

You're right. His views on evolution have sparked quite a bit of debate. He accepts that life on Earth has evolved over billions of years, but he challenges the traditional Why-explanations for evolution.

So, he agrees with the What of evolution, but not necessarily the How or Why

Exactly. While he acknowledges natural selection, he believes it's not the whole story. He proposes that a spiritual force he calls Eros drives evolution towards greater complexity and unity. He's drawn to thinkers who explore ideas around cooperation and self-organization and evolution.

So rather than just random mutations and survival of the fittest, he sees a deeper, possibly purposeful energy driving the process.

That's how he sees it. He draws parallels between the evolution of the cosmos and the evolution of consciousness, suggesting that both are driven by this inherent impulse toward wholeness. However, it's important to note that some scientists criticize him for oversimplifying complex scientific concepts, making claims that aren't fully supported by evidence.

It sounds like this is an area where Wilber's ideas might diverge a bit from mainstream science, and it's crucial to keep that in mind. But for now, let's circle back to his model of growing up. You mentioned that he sees the integral stage as potentially transformative. What makes this stage so significant? Wilber considers the integral stage a monumental leap in human development, one that can help resolve many of the conflicts and challenges we face today. He believes people at this stage can see the interconnectedness of things, appreciate multiple perspectives, and embrace complexity.

So, it's not about rejecting previous stages, but incorporating the best of each into a more comprehensive understanding. And how does this relate to spirituality specifically?

You've hit the nail on the head. It's about integrating the best of each stage into a holistic worldview. view. And when it comes to spirituality, he believes the integral stage fosters a more inclusive and universal spirituality, one that transcends dogma and embraces the interconnectedness of everything.

That's a really hopeful idea, especially in a world that often feels so divided. But we've only scratched the surface of Wilber's Big Wholeness concept. We still have cleaning up, showing up, and opening up to explore. Let's dive into cleaning up next. What does Wilber mean by that? And how does it fit into this whole picture?

Cleaning up, as you I guess is about confronting what Wilber calls our shadow. It's the process of recognizing and integrating those hidden, often unpleasant parts of ourselves that we tend to repress.

Uh, shadow work. I've heard about this. So, it's about facing those aspects of ourselves that we've disowned or denied and bringing them into the light of consciousness so they can be healed. It sounds intense but potentially really liberating.

Exactly. It's about deep inner work that can lead to incredible transformation. Wilber believes that everyone has a shadow and and ignoring it can create all sorts of problems in our lives. He even offers a simple but powerful process called 321 to help with this.

321. Tell me more about that. It sounds intriguing.

It's a three-step process that starts by identifying a person you strongly dislike.

Yeah.

Think of them as a third person and really study their qualities. Then imagine having a conversation with that person, engaging with them as a second person. And finally, the most challenging part, look inward and honestly see if you can recognize those same qualities within for yourself.

Wow, that's deep. I can see how that would be challenging but ultimately lead to greater self-awareness and compassion. But let's move on to showing up. Does this involve taking action in the world based on these insights?

In a way, yes. Showing up is about using Wilber's four quadrants model to get a more complete understanding of any situation. You consider all the different perspectives and dimensions involved,

Right. The four quadrants. Remember we talked about those before. Could you refresh my memory on how those work again?

Of course. It's basically four fundamental perspectives, the interior and exterior of the individual and the interior and exterior of the collective. Think of it like a graph with four sections. On the top are the individual perspectives, your own inner world, and your outward actions. On the bottom are the collective perspectives, shared cultural values, and the social systems we live in.

I'm starting to see how this could be useful, but how would I actually use this four quadrants model in my everyday life?

Well, imagine you're trying to understand a complex issue like poverty. Using the four quadrants, you could explore the internal experiences of someone living in poverty, their thoughts, feelings, beliefs. Then look at their external behavior, their choices, and actions. Next, consider the cultural context, the societal values and beliefs surrounding poverty. And finally, examine the larger social systems, the economic policies and political structures that contribute to poverty.

Wow, that's really comprehensive. It helps you see the issue from multiple angles and understand how all these different factors are interconnected. So showing up is about applying this model to get a fuller picture of any situation.

You got it. Wilber believes this model can be used in a wide range of areas from personal relationships to global challenges. It encourages us to see things holistically and avoid narrow perspectives.

It seems like a powerful tool for navigating the complexities of our world. So we've got cleaning up for shadow work, showing up for using the four quadrants. What about opening up? What does Wilber have to say about that?

Opening up is all about embracing the full spectrum of human intelligence. Wilber argues that we have multiple intelligences, not just the traditional kind measured by IQ tests. He's inspired by the work of Howard Gardner, who identified various types of intelligence like linguistic, logical, mathematical, musical, and interpersonal.

So, it's about recognizing and nurturing our unique strengths and talents. That makes a lot of sense. Everyone excels in different areas.

Exactly. Wilber emphasizes that each type of intelligence has its own purpose and value. For example, Linguistic intelligence helps us with language and communication while interpersonal intelligence allows us to understand and connect with others. He encourages us to develop all our intelligences, not just the ones our culture tends to prioritize.

It's a great message. We all have so much potential waiting to be unlocked. But you know, we've been talking about these five pathways. Waking up, growing up, cleaning up, showing up, and opening up. And they all seem to be focused on our personal growth and development. How does all of this connect to the real world problems we face, things like climate change and social injustice.

That's an important question and Wilber doesn't shy away from addressing it. He believes many of these problems stem from what he calls a developmental gap where our technological advancements have far outpaced our moral and psychological growth.

Ah, so we have the power to destroy ourselves but haven't developed the wisdom and compassion to use that power responsibly.

Exactly. He suggests that many leaders and organizations still operate from what he calls ethnocentric mind. Mindsets focused on narrow self-interests rather than the well-being of the whole planet.

That's pretty sobering. It sounds like he's saying that this lack of consciousness is hindering our ability to address these critical global issues.

He absolutely believes that. He uses the example of a Cuban missile crisis where the world came dangerously close to the nuclear war due to fear and self-interest driving the decisions of powerful leaders.

It's a stark reminder of how fragile our world can be. And with the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, It feels like we're teetering on the brink of another major crisis.

Yes, it's a valid concern. And Wilber's analysis highlights how crucial it is for us to evolve our consciousness both individually and collectively if we want to create a more peaceful and sustainable future.

It's a bit daunting, but I can see a glimmer of hope in what you're saying. If the root of the problem is a lack of consciousness, then maybe the solution lies in fostering greater awareness, compassion, and interconnectedness.

That's precisely the point Wilber is making. He believes that practices like meditation, shadow work and even engaging with the four quadrants model can help us bridge this developmental gap and create a more integral worldview.

So, it's not just about seeking enlightenment for ourselves. It's about contributing to a collective shift in consciousness that can benefit all of humanity.

That's the heart of it. Wilber believes that individual transformation is essential, but not enough. We need a collective awakening, a global shift towards a more integral way of being.

That's really inspiring. It gives me hope. Positive change is possible. But let's go back to Wilber's practical guidings for waking up, specifically those guided meditations he talks about for achieving witness consciousness and non-dual consciousness. You mentioned them earlier, but could you walk me through some of the key points?

Absolutely. For witness consciousness, the key is to cultivate a detached awareness of your thoughts, feelings, and sensations. Imagine sitting comfortably, closing your eyes, and simply observing whatever arises in your mind. You notice thoughts coming and going, emotions ebbing and flowing, but you don't get caught up in them. It's like watching clouds drift by in the sky.

So, it's about creating a space between ourselves and our inner world, becoming a silent observer rather than getting swept away by our thoughts and emotions.

Exactly. And with consistent practice, you might start to experience a sense of spaciousness and freedom, recognizing that you're not just your thoughts and feelings, but something more.

That sounds incredibly liberating. And what about non-dual consciousness? How does that meditation differ from witness consciousness.

Non-dual consciousness goes a step further. It's about shifting your attention from the observer to the field of awareness itself. Instead of focusing on the contents of your awareness, you try to become aware of awareness itself. The Ground of Being that's always present, even the absence of thoughts and sensations.

That sounds almost paradoxical. How do you become aware of awareness?

It's more of an experiential shift than an intellectual understanding. Wilber suggests using a mantra or a sacred word as a focal point. You repeat it silently to yourself. as you rest in the field of awareness, letting go of the need to define or categorize your experience.

So, it's about surrendering to a deeper level of experience that transcends language and thought. It sounds like a profound state of being.

It is. And Wilber emphasizes that these meditations aren't about achieving some special state or becoming a better person. They're about recognizing the Wholeness that's already present within us, the Ground of Being that connects us all.

That's a beautiful way to put it. Now, I know Wilber also talks about tantra as a path to waking up, but tantra often has a bit of a controversial reputation. Can you tell me more about how he interprets tantra and how it fits into his integral framework? It's fascinating how Wilber connects personal growth with global transformation. It makes sense that approaching spirituality with awareness and caution is crucial. As you mentioned earlier, even with the best intentions, there can be pitfalls. Could you tell me more about those potential pitfalls?

It's wise to approach any path of growth with caution and self-awareness. Even with the best intentions, spiritual seeking can sometimes lead to unintended consequences.

You mentioned spiritual by-passing earlier. Could you elaborate on that? What does that look like and how can I avoid it?

Spiritual bypassing is essentially using spiritual ideas or practices to avoid dealing with unresolved emotional issues or psychological wounds. It can manifest in various ways such as using meditation to suppress difficult emotions, focusing on love and light while ignoring the shadow side of life, or adopting a spiritual persona to mask underlying insecurities.

So, it's like using spirituality is a way to escape from the messiness of human experience. It's almost like pretending to be more evolved than you actually are.

Exactly. And while it might provide temporary relief, it ultimately hinders genuine growth and transformation. It's like putting a bandage on a wound without actually cleaning it out.

That's a great analogy. So, how can we avoid falling into the trap of spiritual bypassing? What are some red flags we should watch out for?

One red flag is an excessive focus on positivity or transcendence. If you find yourself constantly trying to rise above difficult emotions or denying the darker aspects of life, it might be a sign that you're by-passing something. Another red flag is an aversion to shadow work or any practices that involve confronting your own limitations and shortcomings.

That makes sense. It's like trying to build a house on a foundation that hasn't been properly inspected. Sooner or later, those cracks are going to show. I'm starting to see how crucial self-awareness is on this path.

Precisely. And it's important to remember that true spiritual growth often involves facing our fears. acknowledging our pain and embracing the fullness of human experience, both the light and the shadow.

So, it's about integration, not denial, and recognizing that spiritual growth isn't about achieving some perfect state, but rather a continuous journey of self-discovery.

Exactly. And it's about recognizing that the spiritual path is not a linear progression towards some perfect state of enlightenment. It's a messy, often challenging journey of self-discovery and transformation.

And it's a journey that's best undertaken with humility, self-awareness, and a willingness to seek guidance when needed.

Absolutely. Having a trusted teacher, therapist, or spiritual mentor can provide invaluable support and help us navigate the inevitable challenges and pitfalls along the way.

That's a good point. It sounds like finding the right support system is key. You know, throughout this deep dive, I've been struck by Wilber's emphasis on a collective shift in consciousness, a move towards a more integral worldview, but he seems to focus primarily on individual transformation as the way to get there. Do you think this overlooks the role of systemic factors like social and political structures that create inequality?

It's a valid critique. Wilber's work can sometimes feel a bit idealistic as if individual enlightenment will magically lead to a more just and harmonious world. He doesn't delve deeply into the complexities of systemic change or the challenges of dismantling oppressive structures.

So while individual transformation is important, it's not the whole story.

Definitely not. We need to address both the inner and the outer to work for person and collective transformation simultaneously. We need to challenge unjust systems while also cultivating the qualities of compassion, wisdom, and interconnectedness that can help us create a better world.

It sounds like it's about finding a balance between inner work and outward action. It's not an either situation, but a both-and approach.

Exactly. And I think it's important to hold Wilber's vision of wholeness in tension with a critical awareness of the systemic forces that shape our lives and our world.

It's about integrating his insights with a commitment to social justice and a willingness to engage in the messy work of systemic change.

That's well said. And it's about recognizing that the path to a more whole, more just, and more compassionate world requires both individual and collective effort.

This has been such an eye-opening deep dive. We've explored Wilber's five pathways to Big Wholeness, learned about his views on evolution and development, and even gotten practical guidance on spiritual practices. And we've also acknowledged the importance of avoiding spiritual by-passing and addressing systemic issues.

It's been a pleasure unpacking these ideas with you. Wilber's work is complex and multiaceted offering much to contemplate.

Absolutely. He's given us a lot to think about both in terms of our own personal growth and our role in creating a better world. So to our listeners, I encourage you to explore Wilber's finding radical wholeness for yourself. Approach it with an open mind, a critical eye, and a willingness to challenge your own assumptions.

And remember, the journey to wholeness is a lifelong process of growth, discovery, and transformation. Embrace the challenge, seek support when needed, and never stop seeking a deeper understanding of yourself and the world around you.

Beautifully said. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive. We'll be back next time with another fascinating exploration into the world of ideas.

REFERENCES

Frank Visser, "The Search for a 'Big Wholeness', Review of Ken Wilber's Finding Radical Wholeness", www.integralworld.net