Integral World: Exploring Theories of Everything
An independent forum for a critical discussion of the integral philosophy of Ken Wilber
Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion, SUNY 2003Frank Visser, graduated as a psychologist of culture and religion, founded IntegralWorld in 1997. He worked as production manager for various publishing houses and as service manager for various internet companies and lives in Amsterdam. Books: Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion (SUNY, 2003), and The Corona Conspiracy: Combatting Disinformation about the Coronavirus (Kindle, 2020).

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The Existence of a Divine Creator

Arguments and Counterarguments

Frank Visser / ChatGPT

Me to ChatGPT:

  • What are the logical or empirical arguments for the existence of a divine Creator and what are the counter arguments? Please write an essay about this question of 2000 words.

Follow-up questions:

  • If a mystic claims s/he has experienced oneness or even identity with God, how are we to evaluate this claim?
  • If someone believes in God because there is a Holy Book that declares that He exists, how are we to evaluate that claim?
  • What is more rational to believe, theism or atheism?
  • Theists can't believe how everything has arisen out of nothing. Atheists, on the other hand can't believe in an uncreated God.
  • The Big Bang theory was advanced by a Belgian priest. But scientist don't think the primordial origin of the universe can be equated with a personal God such as Jehova.
  • Has the belief in God or gods evolved during the course of human history?
  • Will there ever be a time without religion as conventionally understood?
  • Does it make a difference if someone believes or does not believe in the existence of God?



The question of whether a divine Creator exists has been a subject of philosophical and theological debate for centuries. On one hand, proponents argue for the existence of a divine Creator using logical and empirical arguments, while on the other hand, skeptics present counterarguments challenging the notion of such a deity. This essay aims to explore the main arguments put forth by both sides and critically evaluate their strengths and weaknesses.

I. Logical Arguments for the Existence of a Divine Creator:

Cosmological Argument:

The cosmological argument asserts that the existence of the universe necessitates the existence of a divine Creator. It posits that everything in the universe has a cause, and thus, there must be a first cause—an uncaused cause—responsible for bringing the universe into existence. This first cause is often attributed to a divine Creator. This argument draws from the principle of causality and the idea that an infinite regress of causes is illogical.

Teleological Argument:

The teleological argument focuses on the apparent design and order found in the universe. Proponents argue that the intricate complexity and fine-tuning observed in the natural world suggest the presence of an intelligent designer. They contend that the probability of life-sustaining conditions emerging by chance alone is extremely low, making the existence of a divine Creator the most plausible explanation for this design.

Moral Argument:

The moral argument posits that the existence of objective moral values and duties points towards a divine Creator. Advocates argue that moral laws, which are universally recognized and transcend cultural and societal boundaries, require a transcendent source. They propose that a divine Creator provides the foundation for these moral principles and serves as the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong.

II. Counterarguments against the Existence of a Divine Creator:

Problem of Evil:

One of the most potent counterarguments against the existence of a divine Creator is the problem of evil. Skeptics question how an all-powerful and benevolent deity could allow the existence of evil and suffering in the world. The presence of natural disasters, diseases, and human cruelty challenges the notion of an omnipotent and loving Creator. Critics argue that the existence of evil suggests either an indifferent or limited deity, or no deity at all.

Argument from Inconsistent Revelations:

The argument from inconsistent revelations posits that the existence of numerous conflicting religious beliefs undermines the notion of a divine Creator. With countless religions and varying interpretations of religious texts, skeptics argue that if there were a single divine Creator, there should be a consensus among believers. The diversity of religious beliefs and the lack of a singular revelation weaken the argument for a divine Creator.

Naturalistic Explanations:

Counterarguments often center around naturalistic explanations that seek to account for the origin and development of the universe without invoking a divine Creator. Skeptics point to scientific theories, such as the Big Bang and evolution, to explain the universe's existence and the diversity of life forms, respectively. They contend that invoking a divine Creator as an explanation is unnecessary when naturalistic processes can account for these phenomena.


The existence of a divine Creator continues to be a subject of intense debate, with proponents presenting logical arguments based on causality, design, and morality, while skeptics challenge these arguments with counterarguments rooted in the problem of evil, inconsistent revelations, and naturalistic explanations. Despite the depth of these arguments and counterarguments, it is important to recognize that the question of a divine Creator lies beyond the realm of empirical verification or falsification. Ultimately, the existence or nonexistence of a divine Creator often depends on personal beliefs, faith, and individual interpretations of the available evidence.

If a mystic claims s/he has experienced oneness or even identity with God, how are we to evaluate this claim?

When evaluating the claim of a mystic who asserts that they have experienced oneness or identity with God, it is crucial to approach the assessment with an open and respectful mindset. Mystical experiences are deeply personal and subjective, making it challenging to apply traditional empirical or logical methods of evaluation. However, several factors can be considered to gain a better understanding of such claims:

Consistency and coherence:

Examine the coherence and consistency of the mystic's claim with their overall beliefs, teachings, and experiences. If the claim aligns with their established spiritual framework and remains consistent over time, it may lend credibility to their assertion.

Psychological well-being:

Assess the mental and emotional well-being of the mystic. Mystical experiences can be powerful and transformative, but it is important to ensure that the individual does not exhibit signs of mental health issues or delusion. An evaluation by mental health professionals may be beneficial in some cases.

Spiritual tradition and context:

Consider the mystic's spiritual tradition and the cultural context in which they operate. Understanding the philosophical and religious framework within which the mystic operates can provide insights into the interpretation and significance they assign to their experience.

Corroboration and communal validation:

If possible, seek corroboration or validation from other mystics, spiritual practitioners, or individuals within the same tradition who may have had similar experiences. While subjective experiences cannot be objectively proven, shared accounts and communal validation can add weight to the credibility of the claim.

Intellectual inquiry:

Engage in intellectual inquiry and critical analysis of the mystic's claims. Evaluate their teachings, writings, and philosophical arguments surrounding the experience. Assess the logical coherence, depth, and insights presented in their work to determine the level of intellectual rigor accompanying their claim.

Transformation and ethical implications:

Examine the transformative impact of the mystic's claimed experience on their personal life, behavior, and ethical values. If the experience has led to positive personal growth, increased compassion, and a dedication to ethical principles, it may be considered as a positive indicator of the authenticity of the claim.

Comparative study:

Broaden the scope of evaluation by studying similar claims from mystics across different traditions and cultures. Look for commonalities and patterns in their descriptions of mystical experiences, which may lend further credence to the claim.

It is important to note that mysticism and personal spiritual experiences lie beyond the purview of empirical verification. Consequently, evaluating such claims requires a balanced approach that considers multiple factors, including personal and subjective elements. Ultimately, the assessment of a mystic's claim should remain open to interpretation and respectful of the diversity of human experiences and beliefs.

If someone believes in God because there is a Holy Book that declares that He exists, how are we to evaluate that claim?

When evaluating the claim that God exists based on the presence of a Holy Book, it is important to consider several factors in order to form a comprehensive assessment. Here are some key points to keep in mind:

Context and Interpretation:

Examine the historical and cultural context in which the Holy Book was written. Understanding the circumstances, audience, and intended message can shed light on the interpretation and intended meaning of the text. Additionally, consider the diversity of interpretations that may exist within different religious traditions based on the same Holy Book.

Internal Coherence:

Evaluate the internal coherence of the Holy Book. Assess whether its teachings, narratives, and philosophical concepts align logically and consistently within the text itself. Look for any contradictions or inconsistencies that may arise from different passages or teachings.

Historical and Archaeological Corroboration:

Consider whether there is historical or archaeological evidence that supports the events, people, or places mentioned in the Holy Book. While this may not directly prove the existence of God, it can contribute to the credibility of the book's historical claims.

External Corroboration:

Examine whether there are external sources or accounts that corroborate the events or claims described in the Holy Book. This may include references from contemporary historical or philosophical writings, or cultural artifacts from the relevant time and place.

Philosophical and Logical Arguments:

Evaluate the philosophical and logical arguments presented within the Holy Book. Assess the strength and coherence of these arguments for the existence of God, as well as any counterarguments or objections that may be raised against them.

Comparative Analysis:

Engage in comparative religious studies by examining similar claims and beliefs from other religious traditions. Consider the similarities and differences in their holy texts and the arguments put forth to support their claims. This broader perspective can provide a more comprehensive understanding of the diversity of religious beliefs and the various approaches to interpreting holy texts.

Personal Reflection and Experience:

Acknowledge that personal reflection and individual experiences play a significant role in matters of faith. Recognize that for some individuals, the belief in God based on the Holy Book may be deeply rooted in personal experiences, spiritual encounters, or a sense of personal connection and meaning. Respect the subjective nature of these experiences while also considering the limitations of personal experience as a universally persuasive form of evidence.

It is important to approach the evaluation of claims based on a Holy Book with respect and empathy, recognizing that religious beliefs are deeply personal and can have a profound impact on individuals and communities. The assessment should involve a balanced consideration of historical, philosophical, logical, and personal aspects, while also acknowledging the limits of empirical verification in matters of faith.

What is more rational to believe, theism or atheism?

The question of whether theism or atheism is more rational to believe is a complex and subjective matter, as it pertains to personal beliefs, worldviews, and individual interpretations of evidence. Rationality itself can be understood and applied differently by individuals. It is important to approach this question with intellectual humility and recognize that reasonable people can hold different perspectives on this matter.

Theism, which asserts the existence of a higher power or divine being, is often supported by arguments such as the cosmological argument, teleological argument, and moral argument. These arguments propose that the existence of the universe, its apparent design, and the existence of moral values suggest the presence of a divine Creator. Proponents of theism often find comfort, meaning, and purpose in their belief in a higher power.

Atheism, on the other hand, is the absence of belief in a higher power or deities. Atheists often base their worldview on empirical evidence, scientific explanations, and philosophical arguments that challenge the existence of a divine being. They may argue that naturalistic explanations, such as the Big Bang theory or evolution, provide sufficient explanations for the origin and development of the universe and life without the need for a God.

It is important to note that the rationality of belief in theism or atheism depends on the standards of evidence and reasoning that an individual finds persuasive. Rationality can be influenced by factors such as personal experiences, cultural background, education, and the weight individuals assign to different types of evidence (empirical, logical, experiential, etc.).

Furthermore, it is essential to recognize that rationality is not the sole determinant of belief. Emotions, intuition, personal values, and existential needs also play significant roles in shaping individual belief systems. Different individuals may weigh these factors differently, leading to different conclusions about the rationality of theism or atheism.

Ultimately, the question of which belief is more rational is subjective and can vary from person to person. It is important to approach discussions on this topic with open-mindedness, respect for differing perspectives, and a willingness to engage in thoughtful dialogue and critical examination of the evidence and arguments presented by both sides.

Theists can't believe how everything has arisen out of nothing. Atheists, on the other hand can't believe in an uncreated God.

The statement you present highlights the contrasting perspectives and challenges faced by theists and atheists when considering the origins of existence. However, it is essential to note that individual beliefs and viewpoints may vary within both theist and atheist communities. Let's explore these contrasting positions in more detail:


Theists believe in the existence of a higher power or divine being, which they often attribute to the cause of the universe's existence. For many theists, the concept of a divine Creator provides an explanation for the origins of existence. They find it difficult to accept the idea that everything has arisen out of nothing without an external cause. Theism posits that God, as an uncreated and eternal entity, serves as the ultimate source of creation.


Atheists, on the other hand, do not believe in the existence of a higher power or divine being. They often rely on naturalistic explanations, such as scientific theories and empirical evidence, to understand the origins and development of the universe. Many atheists find it difficult to accept the concept of an uncreated God because it appears to introduce an additional layer of complexity without providing a satisfying explanation for the origins of existence.

It is worth noting that atheism does not necessarily entail a belief that everything has arisen out of nothing. Rather, atheists typically seek naturalistic explanations based on observable phenomena and scientific evidence, such as the Big Bang theory for the origin of the universe or abiogenesis for the emergence of life.

It is important to recognize that both positions involve philosophical and metaphysical considerations beyond empirical evidence alone. Questions regarding the ultimate origins of existence and the nature of causality are complex and fall into the realm of metaphysics, where definitive answers may be elusive.

Ultimately, beliefs regarding the origin of existence vary among individuals, and different perspectives can coexist within both theist and atheist communities. The diversity of viewpoints highlights the complexity of the question and the challenges inherent in comprehending the mysteries of existence.

The Big Bang theory was advanced by a Belgian priest. But scientist don't think the primordial origin of the universe can be equated with a personal God such as Jehova.

You are correct that the Big Bang theory was initially proposed by the Belgian physicist and Catholic priest Georges Lemaître. He formulated the theory based on the observation that the universe appears to be expanding from a highly dense and hot state. Lemaître's work laid the foundation for our current understanding of the origin and evolution of the universe.

While the Big Bang theory provides insights into the early stages of the universe, it does not directly address questions of a personal God or specific religious doctrines. Scientists generally consider the primordial origin of the universe as a subject within the realm of cosmology, while discussions of personal gods or specific religious beliefs typically fall within the domain of theology or personal faith.

It is important to distinguish between scientific explanations and religious or philosophical interpretations. The Big Bang theory offers a scientific explanation for the expansion and development of the universe, focusing on naturalistic processes and physical laws. In contrast, religious or philosophical views of a personal God often involve concepts of intentionality, purpose, and moral agency, which are not directly addressed by scientific theories.

Scientists, as practitioners of empirical inquiry, generally adhere to methodological naturalism, which means they seek naturalistic explanations for observable phenomena. This approach is rooted in the idea that scientific investigation relies on testable hypotheses, empirical evidence, and repeatable observations. While scientific theories like the Big Bang provide insights into the physical processes governing the universe, they do not inherently support or negate specific religious beliefs.

It is worth emphasizing that the compatibility between scientific and religious perspectives varies among individuals. Many scientists maintain personal religious beliefs and see no inherent conflict between their scientific work and their faith. Others adopt a more atheistic or agnostic stance, viewing scientific explanations as sufficient and not requiring the inclusion of supernatural or religious elements.

Ultimately, the question of whether the primordial origin of the universe can be equated with a personal God such as Jehovah is a matter of personal interpretation, philosophical inquiry, and individual faith. Different individuals and communities may hold diverse perspectives, and the relationship between scientific theories and religious beliefs remains a complex and deeply personal subject.

Has the belief in God or gods evolved during the course of human history?

Yes, the belief in God or gods has indeed evolved throughout human history. The development of religious beliefs and the evolution of human cultures have shaped the ways in which people conceive and understand the divine. Some key aspects of this evolution include:

Polytheism to Monotheism:

In the early stages of human history, many cultures embraced polytheistic beliefs, worshiping multiple gods and goddesses, each associated with different aspects of life or natural phenomena. However, over time, monotheistic belief systems emerged, emphasizing the worship of a single supreme deity. Religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam exemplify this transition from polytheism to monotheism.

Concepts of Deity:

Throughout history, conceptions of God or gods have varied significantly. In some cultures, deities were viewed as personified beings with human-like qualities and emotions. In contrast, other belief systems conceived of gods as abstract, transcendent forces or principles. The anthropomorphism or abstraction of deities has evolved as cultures and philosophical ideas have developed.

Institutionalization of Religion:

As societies became more complex, religious beliefs became institutionalized. Rituals, priesthoods, and organized religious structures emerged, influencing the ways in which people practiced and understood their beliefs. The role and authority of religious institutions evolved, often playing significant roles in shaping social, political, and cultural dynamics.

Interactions and Cultural Exchanges:

As human civilizations interacted and cultures intermingled, religious beliefs were influenced by these encounters. Conquests, trade routes, migrations, and cultural exchanges led to the merging, adaptation, or assimilation of religious ideas. This resulted in the syncretism of beliefs and the emergence of new religious traditions.

Philosophical and Scientific Influences:

The development of philosophy and the advancement of scientific understanding have also influenced the evolution of religious beliefs. Concepts such as naturalism, skepticism, rationalism, and secularism have challenged and reshaped religious worldviews, prompting reinterpretations and reformulations of religious doctrines.

Secularization and Atheism:

With the rise of secularism, there has been a notable increase in atheism and skepticism towards religious beliefs. In some societies, religious authority has waned, and religious beliefs have become less influential in public life. This has led to a diversification of beliefs and an increase in non-religious or secular worldviews.

It is important to recognize that the evolution of religious beliefs is a complex and multifaceted phenomenon influenced by various social, cultural, philosophical, and historical factors. Different cultures and individuals have experienced and interpreted this evolution in diverse ways, leading to a rich tapestry of religious traditions and beliefs across the globe.

Will there ever be a time without religion as conventionally understood?

Predicting the future trajectory of religion is a complex task, and it is challenging to make definitive statements about the course it will take. However, it is important to consider some factors that may influence the presence and role of religion in society:

Shifts in Religious Affiliation:

Over time, patterns of religious affiliation and identification can change. Societies have experienced shifts in religious demographics, with some religious traditions declining and others gaining prominence. These changes can impact the overall influence and presence of religion as conventionally understood.

Secularization and Modernization:

As societies modernize and become more secular, religious beliefs and practices may undergo transformations. The influence of religious institutions on public life may diminish, and religious perspectives may occupy a less central role in societal decision-making. This does not necessarily mean a complete absence of religion, but rather a reconfiguration of its role and influence.

Sociocultural Changes:

Social and cultural developments can shape the expression and significance of religion. Factors such as globalization, increased interconnectedness, and multiculturalism can expose individuals to diverse religious traditions and alternative belief systems. This exposure may contribute to a broader understanding and tolerance of different religious perspectives or even a shift away from conventional religious frameworks.

Rise of Non-Religious Identities:

The growth of non-religious identities, including atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism, has been observed in various parts of the world. These individuals may seek alternative sources of meaning, morality, and community outside traditional religious institutions. The visibility and influence of non-religious perspectives can contribute to changes in the societal landscape and the conventional understanding of religion.

Continued Religious Diversity:

Religious diversity is a characteristic of many societies, and this diversity is likely to persist. Different religious traditions and belief systems offer unique perspectives, practices, and ways of understanding the world. While the influence of religion may shift, it is probable that various religious beliefs and practices will continue to exist in some form.

Given these factors, it is plausible to envision a future where the conventional understanding and influence of religion may change. However, it is unlikely that religion will disappear entirely from human societies. The human quest for meaning, purpose, and existential questions often finds expression through religious or spiritual frameworks. As long as these fundamental human needs persist, it is probable that religion, in one form or another, will continue to be a part of human culture and society.

It is worth noting that the future is inherently uncertain, and unforeseen events or developments can shape the course of religious belief and practice. Therefore, any predictions should be approached with caution, recognizing the complexities and dynamism of human belief systems.

Does it make a difference if someone believes or does not believe in the existence of God?

The belief or non-belief in the existence of God can have significant implications on an individual's worldview, values, and behaviors. It can shape one's understanding of the purpose and meaning of life, provide a framework for moral and ethical decision-making, and influence one's sense of identity and belonging within a community. Here are some key areas where belief or non-belief in God can make a difference:

Meaning and Purpose:

Belief in God often provides individuals with a sense of meaning and purpose in life. It can offer answers to existential questions, such as the origin and ultimate destiny of the universe and one's place within it. Non-believers, on the other hand, may find meaning and purpose in secular humanistic values, personal relationships, or a sense of fulfillment through various pursuits.

Morality and Ethics:

Religious beliefs frequently provide a moral framework that shapes an individual's understanding of right and wrong. Theistic perspectives often derive moral principles from the teachings of their respective religious traditions, considering them to be divinely ordained. Non-believers, while also capable of holding moral values, tend to rely on secular ethical frameworks based on reason, empathy, social norms, and human well-being.

Community and Identity:

Religious beliefs often play a crucial role in forming a sense of identity and belonging within a religious community. Shared beliefs, rituals, and practices can foster a sense of connection and social cohesion. For non-believers, secular communities or affinity groups can provide a similar sense of identity and belonging based on shared values, skepticism, or humanist principles.

Personal Well-being and Coping:

Belief in God can provide individuals with comfort, solace, and a source of strength during challenging times. Religious practices, prayer, or a sense of divine guidance may contribute to personal well-being and resilience. Non-believers, while lacking religious comfort, may find support and coping mechanisms in secular sources, such as human relationships, personal growth, or psychological techniques.

Worldview and Decision-making:

Belief or non-belief in God can shape one's overall worldview, influencing interpretations of reality, science, and human experience. It can influence attitudes towards topics like the origins of the universe, the nature of consciousness, social issues, and personal autonomy. These perspectives can, in turn, influence decision-making processes and guide choices in various areas of life.

It is important to recognize that the impact of belief or non-belief in God can vary among individuals. Different people may hold different degrees of conviction, interpretations, or understandings of their beliefs. Moreover, personal experiences, cultural context, and individual circumstances further shape the way beliefs manifest in one's life.

Ultimately, the belief or non-belief in the existence of God is a deeply personal matter that influences one's worldview, values, and behaviors in a multitude of ways, often providing a lens through which individuals interpret and navigate the world around them.

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